This is so fascinating to read as someone who is still technically evangelical but maybe not culturally, and has been deeply sympathetic/attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy for a long time. I resonated with most of what you write despite not being EO.
I wasn’t raised in a very closed/fearful/absolutist community, so I didn’t have to run from that. However, I do find myself at odds with the majority of evangelicals politically, and I cannot stand the MacArthurism of the world. My faith is defined by Christ and the things that are held in common with EO. My husband’s THM specialty is early church history. I am not EO partly because my husband is not, and partly because I don’t see in it any more of a comfortable cultural home than any other sphere of Christianity, and partly because I can’t get on board with the absolutes.
This is so, so good and so helpful. Thank you. And thank you for telling the truth about Dreher's and MacArthur's views and methods -- there are too few Christians willing to do that.
I came to Orthodoxy myself in late 2020, being baptized on Holy Saturday 2022. I’ve definitely seen the influence of AAE but I think my own conversion and catechesis was largely sheltered from this due to the fact that I became Orthodox in a heavily Arab Antiochian parish. Liturgy was mostly in Arabic with some English, and the priest himself was from Damascus. I was the only catechumen and one of the few non-Arabs at the parish. This had the effect of forcing me to almost entirely abandon what I knew as the life and practice of Christianity. I was so used to the “extra-curriculars” of the Protestant world, men’s groups, youth group, Bible studies, etc. While there were programs for the children and the parish had a ladies society, everything else was centered around the gathering of the entire community. Any study of the Bible in a group was supervised and led by the priests, and people didn’t have the same “scholastic” approach to Christianity with which I was so familiar. The mindset and approach to the faith which I encountered in all of the people around me who were born Orthodox, and whose families had been Orthodox for millennia, was totally different and foreign to me. It was because of this that when I first went out into the wider American Orthodox world, I was a bit culture shocked, in a way. I encountered the ortho-bros and AAE in real life, not just a comment section, and couldn’t understand how this had entered the new world of faith that I myself had found. The article does a great job I think of explaining the phenomenon and identifying causes and figureheads. I even really like Fr. Trenham for a while, mostly thanks to his theological evaluations of Protestantism and explanations of Orthodox concepts, but something always felt a little off to me about his approach to the “culture wars” and I’ve pretty much stopped listening to him altogether.
I’m now living in Serbia, and while this country, like every other, has its issues, and the Church here is also full of people who all have problems, it’s almost funny to me to read about the AAE and see how uniquely American it is. Behavior and mentality like that here would be unthinkable. Thanks for the article!
Re: I think this is due to Dreher having two faces—the nice Christian man in his books, and the reactionary fear-mongering transphobe in his American Conservative articles.
He's has a third face: the man in real life. I have met him personally a number of times, and I maintain an email conversation with him. Yes, I deplore many of his political rants, I find his current UFOs-are-demons thing weird, and now especially his turn to Trumpism (whereas formally he held back from that) is problematic. But on the personal level he is pleasant and cheerful, despite his own life's difficulties and griefs, with a sense of humor and a love of the good things. I would trust him with my closest secret or my last dime.
More broadly I have been Orthodox for 29 years and I have never encountered what you call AAE in Orthodoxy. Yes, there are MAGA parishoners out there, including some who spread ludicrous conspiracy theories, but there are plenty of people who skew leftwards and like me would not vote for Trump if you waved a winning lottery ticket under their nose. The parishes I've attended (three in the last five years) have all been avowedly apolitical. My current priest, if he touches on such things at all, will condemn both sexual liberrtarianism and economic libertarianism. To be sure there is a problem with young men who are converting, the "Orthobros" who may get carried away and act more Orthodox than the Patriarch, especially in online forums where they are quick with judgmental and often half-baked accusations. At my church, where we currently have sixteen katechumens, over half men, our priest has asked those of us guys who have been Orthodox for a long time to befriend these newbies and keep them from forming a too-intense clique of their own. And if you read Rod Dreher even he complains about the extremism of "Orthobros" and "Very Online Orthodox". Still, it's a bigger problem in New World Orthodoxy that we have too many parishes which are ethnic clubs with a chaplain, all about some Old Country culture and rather little about Christ.
"parishes which are ethnic clubs with a chaplain, all about some Old Country culture and rather little about Christ".....yes! my experience as an inquirer at a ROCOR parish
You would probably like Paul Kingsnorth, I think his recent First Things lecture questioning the glory of "western civilization" would resonate with you, as it did with me. (Among other things, he is an Orthodox convert with a deep love of the earth and environmental issues, and helped me see the value in this after a lifetime of parroting the Western industrialist corporate line.)
There is in some converts certainly a type of "culture war" mindset - in the sense that "we have to fight to change the culture/make American Christian again!/establish an Orthodox state!" or whatever. This is in many ways the same thing as in early 2000s Bush-era Evangelical politics led by Jerry Falwell, just in a fresh set of clothes.
I think that you are right that many of the reactionary young men converting right now tend to come into Orthodoxy with a fundamentally similar fundamentalism, so to speak, just with some knobs tweaked to different settings - for instance, the common talk about having a monarchy, which ranges from meme culture to serious suggestion, in place of enthusiasm for American imperialism. I can't say I'm not entirely sympathetic toward such ideas, but it seems (as you'd find in Kingsnorth's writings) that this fundamentalist approach is putting the cart before the horse. When the Roman Empire became Christian, this wasn't the fruit of centuries of political activism, and especially not revolutionary activity, but a miraculous event in the conversion of the emperor, as Christians lived their faith and endured centuries of persecution and were ready when God did the work - much like how Ananias was ready when God sent him to Saul.
On the other hand, the "culture war" is quite real in the sense of Western culture assaulting traditional Christian values and ethics, and this is what Fr. Josiah Trenham is engaged in. It seems unavoidable that we have to wrestle with it to some degree, since the "culture" is always coming for us and few are in any position to avoid the various negative currents flowing in it. I'm not all that familiar with Dreher, having read little of his work, but I suspect his vitriol (which very well may be inappropriate or lacking nuance), is being directed toward those who use things like transgender ideology, homosexuality, and so on as a cultural weapon, indicated by his hostility toward educators imposing these ideas in classrooms. This seems quite distinct from showing hatred toward ordinary people who may identify with these things (and, as I would argue, suffer from them) but aren't trying to impose them on everybody else, and are much more like victims of it. You can hate the tobacco companies, pornographers, and so on, while being sympathetic toward those addicted to their products, so to speak, and it's much the same with the sexual ideologies that are often manufactured through entertainment, social media, and public education. Again, perhaps Dreher articulates this poorly or fails to nuance it or shows unrighteous judgment of others, but I suspect this is what he is attempting to convey, however clumsily.
About five years from my first visit to an Orthodox parish, I went from being all gung-ho reactionary to having most of my views tempered, political issues not seeming very important anymore or occupying much of my consciousness. This has been a common theme with a lot of us - we went from being aggressive consumers of Jay Dyer, etc. content to largely outgrowing it and the reactionary culture. But that can take time. I think many of the new converts are still in this early phase, and it's just going to take a bit more experience and life in the Church for them to grow out of it. In the meantime, we can nudge them in the right direction, and show patience. Let your life be an example, and show love and friendship toward people at your parish even if you don't see eye to eye on political issues. If Mvh Glorious Western Civilization is the real motivator, they're drop out when they realize, through experience, that Orthodoxy is about transformation of the heart, not a tool for pursuing a socio-political agenda, and there are far easier and more comfortable ways for them to do that.
I attend a large ROCOR parish in the South with many "orthobro" types, but I know at least one young convert who describes himself as an unabashed Marxist. There all manner of perspectives on various hot-button cultural issues, and a shockingly diverse congregation including many black people, and ladies converting as well. We were the only parish in the area that didn't close during Covid (one of the reasons I visited the parish in the first place), but neither was anybody shamed for being cautious about the situation. The head priest has always encouraged us to forsake political squabbling and pursue repentance and focus on Christ, and trust in Him rather than any fickle politician, leader, or ideologue. His approach has always seemed quite authentically Orthodox and Christian, and always helps me get back to what really matters.
The AAE you describe is a real thing, even if I'd dispute the boundaries of it somewhat, but I don't think it's "infiltrating" the Church. It's just a present trend that will cool off as converts grow spiritually, or don't grow spiritually and leave. If Islam, Communism, paganism, and other such powerful forces failed to destroy the Church, I don't think some over-enthusiastic converts in need of growing up will either, and I don't think some popular but invective figures necessarily speak for the Church, and certainly aren't steering anything other than popular-level online discourse.
I am praying that the Lord blesses you with a fruitful and edifying Lent, and grants you good relations with those at your parish.
I would just say three things—1. yes evangelicals/ conservative Protestantism has leaked into Orthodoxy. 2. They are often too much the face of Orthodoxy for much of this generation. Three they are not Orthodoxy. I’ve always said if you want to make the church better then it’s our job to do it. Arguments get nowhere. I too grew up conservative evangelical reformed. It was terrible. I too cringe at what some at my church say. But I always have learned the liberal mentality is just as dangerous and found a wonderful spiritual father at a monastery. The major problem here isn’t Orthodoxy, it is American Orthodoxy. We bring all our own bs in. But I have seen people grow much. And also personally I couldn’t send my kids to public school. Thankfully we have been given generous funding to send them to a school that does classical education but at some point we might homeschool. The world is both better and worse than either side of America thinks.
I think many of us feel like sojourners through our Christian communities. I still wander the evangelical track, and like you, keep many of my thoughts to myself (except in my anonymous writing here). I'm not sure what to do about it, aside from pray.
…”Helen tells me that she and James are hoping to make The Moorings into something more formal — something that struck me as exactly the kind of thing I envisioned when I wrote The Benedict Option. As you readers well know, I do not call for total withdrawal from the world, but rather for the forming of various kinds of Christian communities within which we can deepen our faith, via study, spiritual discipline, and fellowship, so that when we go out into the world, we can think and act as authentic small-o orthodox Christians.”
Well, the nuance here is appreciated. I also appreciate your highlighting of the civilizational and hyper-institutional bent which Orthodoxy on American soil is contending with, for it is a reality. Thank you.
Amen. I have been pondering this article much, Pierce. I saw something recently, which had a similar disruptive and enlightening impact as your article, amidst these reactionary, pendulum-like responses to culture. ARC later shared this video community-announcement format, commenting that it was the singular presentation they would have a viewer attend to, if he or she viewed any of the published speeches at all. Rightfully so.
The entirety of Joshua Luke Smith's 9 minutes is just a hailstorm of soulful linguistics and full-bodied craftsmanship. It is a vibrant clarion call to be the "Seeds". To be a part of the growth of gardens, rather than building and imposing into oblivion. I also personally felt his offering was a highlight of the all recordings published, thus far. It is beyond pertinent to the story of Orthodoxy on this soil.
Please attend if you will. Blessings, for lending your eyes.
Wherever there are human beings, we will find imperfection. So too in the Orthodox faith. I hear your struggles and frustrations and share them with you. I keep my faith by focusing on our rich theology. I keep my faith by embracing its Truth. The Church is a hospital, so we enter its doors with others who need healed in one way or another. Do not lose your faith. Do not let the devil take that from you. Thank you for your writings and insight. I look forward to reading more and following your unique journey as a faithful servant of Christ.
MacArthur can be dangerous. It's his way or the highway
Thanks Pierce for an excellent analysis—don’t let the detractors discourage you. Keep writing! 🙏
This is so fascinating to read as someone who is still technically evangelical but maybe not culturally, and has been deeply sympathetic/attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy for a long time. I resonated with most of what you write despite not being EO.
I wasn’t raised in a very closed/fearful/absolutist community, so I didn’t have to run from that. However, I do find myself at odds with the majority of evangelicals politically, and I cannot stand the MacArthurism of the world. My faith is defined by Christ and the things that are held in common with EO. My husband’s THM specialty is early church history. I am not EO partly because my husband is not, and partly because I don’t see in it any more of a comfortable cultural home than any other sphere of Christianity, and partly because I can’t get on board with the absolutes.
This is so, so good and so helpful. Thank you. And thank you for telling the truth about Dreher's and MacArthur's views and methods -- there are too few Christians willing to do that.
I came to Orthodoxy myself in late 2020, being baptized on Holy Saturday 2022. I’ve definitely seen the influence of AAE but I think my own conversion and catechesis was largely sheltered from this due to the fact that I became Orthodox in a heavily Arab Antiochian parish. Liturgy was mostly in Arabic with some English, and the priest himself was from Damascus. I was the only catechumen and one of the few non-Arabs at the parish. This had the effect of forcing me to almost entirely abandon what I knew as the life and practice of Christianity. I was so used to the “extra-curriculars” of the Protestant world, men’s groups, youth group, Bible studies, etc. While there were programs for the children and the parish had a ladies society, everything else was centered around the gathering of the entire community. Any study of the Bible in a group was supervised and led by the priests, and people didn’t have the same “scholastic” approach to Christianity with which I was so familiar. The mindset and approach to the faith which I encountered in all of the people around me who were born Orthodox, and whose families had been Orthodox for millennia, was totally different and foreign to me. It was because of this that when I first went out into the wider American Orthodox world, I was a bit culture shocked, in a way. I encountered the ortho-bros and AAE in real life, not just a comment section, and couldn’t understand how this had entered the new world of faith that I myself had found. The article does a great job I think of explaining the phenomenon and identifying causes and figureheads. I even really like Fr. Trenham for a while, mostly thanks to his theological evaluations of Protestantism and explanations of Orthodox concepts, but something always felt a little off to me about his approach to the “culture wars” and I’ve pretty much stopped listening to him altogether.
I’m now living in Serbia, and while this country, like every other, has its issues, and the Church here is also full of people who all have problems, it’s almost funny to me to read about the AAE and see how uniquely American it is. Behavior and mentality like that here would be unthinkable. Thanks for the article!
Re: I think this is due to Dreher having two faces—the nice Christian man in his books, and the reactionary fear-mongering transphobe in his American Conservative articles.
He's has a third face: the man in real life. I have met him personally a number of times, and I maintain an email conversation with him. Yes, I deplore many of his political rants, I find his current UFOs-are-demons thing weird, and now especially his turn to Trumpism (whereas formally he held back from that) is problematic. But on the personal level he is pleasant and cheerful, despite his own life's difficulties and griefs, with a sense of humor and a love of the good things. I would trust him with my closest secret or my last dime.
More broadly I have been Orthodox for 29 years and I have never encountered what you call AAE in Orthodoxy. Yes, there are MAGA parishoners out there, including some who spread ludicrous conspiracy theories, but there are plenty of people who skew leftwards and like me would not vote for Trump if you waved a winning lottery ticket under their nose. The parishes I've attended (three in the last five years) have all been avowedly apolitical. My current priest, if he touches on such things at all, will condemn both sexual liberrtarianism and economic libertarianism. To be sure there is a problem with young men who are converting, the "Orthobros" who may get carried away and act more Orthodox than the Patriarch, especially in online forums where they are quick with judgmental and often half-baked accusations. At my church, where we currently have sixteen katechumens, over half men, our priest has asked those of us guys who have been Orthodox for a long time to befriend these newbies and keep them from forming a too-intense clique of their own. And if you read Rod Dreher even he complains about the extremism of "Orthobros" and "Very Online Orthodox". Still, it's a bigger problem in New World Orthodoxy that we have too many parishes which are ethnic clubs with a chaplain, all about some Old Country culture and rather little about Christ.
"parishes which are ethnic clubs with a chaplain, all about some Old Country culture and rather little about Christ".....yes! my experience as an inquirer at a ROCOR parish
I’m not fully through this article but you pretty much described my child hood and thought patterns word for word, I’m truly in shock right now.
You would probably like Paul Kingsnorth, I think his recent First Things lecture questioning the glory of "western civilization" would resonate with you, as it did with me. (Among other things, he is an Orthodox convert with a deep love of the earth and environmental issues, and helped me see the value in this after a lifetime of parroting the Western industrialist corporate line.)
There is in some converts certainly a type of "culture war" mindset - in the sense that "we have to fight to change the culture/make American Christian again!/establish an Orthodox state!" or whatever. This is in many ways the same thing as in early 2000s Bush-era Evangelical politics led by Jerry Falwell, just in a fresh set of clothes.
I think that you are right that many of the reactionary young men converting right now tend to come into Orthodoxy with a fundamentally similar fundamentalism, so to speak, just with some knobs tweaked to different settings - for instance, the common talk about having a monarchy, which ranges from meme culture to serious suggestion, in place of enthusiasm for American imperialism. I can't say I'm not entirely sympathetic toward such ideas, but it seems (as you'd find in Kingsnorth's writings) that this fundamentalist approach is putting the cart before the horse. When the Roman Empire became Christian, this wasn't the fruit of centuries of political activism, and especially not revolutionary activity, but a miraculous event in the conversion of the emperor, as Christians lived their faith and endured centuries of persecution and were ready when God did the work - much like how Ananias was ready when God sent him to Saul.
On the other hand, the "culture war" is quite real in the sense of Western culture assaulting traditional Christian values and ethics, and this is what Fr. Josiah Trenham is engaged in. It seems unavoidable that we have to wrestle with it to some degree, since the "culture" is always coming for us and few are in any position to avoid the various negative currents flowing in it. I'm not all that familiar with Dreher, having read little of his work, but I suspect his vitriol (which very well may be inappropriate or lacking nuance), is being directed toward those who use things like transgender ideology, homosexuality, and so on as a cultural weapon, indicated by his hostility toward educators imposing these ideas in classrooms. This seems quite distinct from showing hatred toward ordinary people who may identify with these things (and, as I would argue, suffer from them) but aren't trying to impose them on everybody else, and are much more like victims of it. You can hate the tobacco companies, pornographers, and so on, while being sympathetic toward those addicted to their products, so to speak, and it's much the same with the sexual ideologies that are often manufactured through entertainment, social media, and public education. Again, perhaps Dreher articulates this poorly or fails to nuance it or shows unrighteous judgment of others, but I suspect this is what he is attempting to convey, however clumsily.
About five years from my first visit to an Orthodox parish, I went from being all gung-ho reactionary to having most of my views tempered, political issues not seeming very important anymore or occupying much of my consciousness. This has been a common theme with a lot of us - we went from being aggressive consumers of Jay Dyer, etc. content to largely outgrowing it and the reactionary culture. But that can take time. I think many of the new converts are still in this early phase, and it's just going to take a bit more experience and life in the Church for them to grow out of it. In the meantime, we can nudge them in the right direction, and show patience. Let your life be an example, and show love and friendship toward people at your parish even if you don't see eye to eye on political issues. If Mvh Glorious Western Civilization is the real motivator, they're drop out when they realize, through experience, that Orthodoxy is about transformation of the heart, not a tool for pursuing a socio-political agenda, and there are far easier and more comfortable ways for them to do that.
I attend a large ROCOR parish in the South with many "orthobro" types, but I know at least one young convert who describes himself as an unabashed Marxist. There all manner of perspectives on various hot-button cultural issues, and a shockingly diverse congregation including many black people, and ladies converting as well. We were the only parish in the area that didn't close during Covid (one of the reasons I visited the parish in the first place), but neither was anybody shamed for being cautious about the situation. The head priest has always encouraged us to forsake political squabbling and pursue repentance and focus on Christ, and trust in Him rather than any fickle politician, leader, or ideologue. His approach has always seemed quite authentically Orthodox and Christian, and always helps me get back to what really matters.
The AAE you describe is a real thing, even if I'd dispute the boundaries of it somewhat, but I don't think it's "infiltrating" the Church. It's just a present trend that will cool off as converts grow spiritually, or don't grow spiritually and leave. If Islam, Communism, paganism, and other such powerful forces failed to destroy the Church, I don't think some over-enthusiastic converts in need of growing up will either, and I don't think some popular but invective figures necessarily speak for the Church, and certainly aren't steering anything other than popular-level online discourse.
I am praying that the Lord blesses you with a fruitful and edifying Lent, and grants you good relations with those at your parish.
I would just say three things—1. yes evangelicals/ conservative Protestantism has leaked into Orthodoxy. 2. They are often too much the face of Orthodoxy for much of this generation. Three they are not Orthodoxy. I’ve always said if you want to make the church better then it’s our job to do it. Arguments get nowhere. I too grew up conservative evangelical reformed. It was terrible. I too cringe at what some at my church say. But I always have learned the liberal mentality is just as dangerous and found a wonderful spiritual father at a monastery. The major problem here isn’t Orthodoxy, it is American Orthodoxy. We bring all our own bs in. But I have seen people grow much. And also personally I couldn’t send my kids to public school. Thankfully we have been given generous funding to send them to a school that does classical education but at some point we might homeschool. The world is both better and worse than either side of America thinks.
You seem to be conflating 'AAE' with 'pre-1939 actually-existing Orthodox Christianity'.
The American is a fish, demanding we all swim in his water.
You hit the nail on the head.
I think many of us feel like sojourners through our Christian communities. I still wander the evangelical track, and like you, keep many of my thoughts to myself (except in my anonymous writing here). I'm not sure what to do about it, aside from pray.
Yes, I agree go to liturgy…where you should have been this morning, should be at tonight’s service, and tomorrow morning. Pray for people.
…”Helen tells me that she and James are hoping to make The Moorings into something more formal — something that struck me as exactly the kind of thing I envisioned when I wrote The Benedict Option. As you readers well know, I do not call for total withdrawal from the world, but rather for the forming of various kinds of Christian communities within which we can deepen our faith, via study, spiritual discipline, and fellowship, so that when we go out into the world, we can think and act as authentic small-o orthodox Christians.”
When an author begins his work with a lie, then all that remains is in question. From today, in Dreher’s Diary: “
Love is the Way.
Well, the nuance here is appreciated. I also appreciate your highlighting of the civilizational and hyper-institutional bent which Orthodoxy on American soil is contending with, for it is a reality. Thank you.
Amen. I have been pondering this article much, Pierce. I saw something recently, which had a similar disruptive and enlightening impact as your article, amidst these reactionary, pendulum-like responses to culture. ARC later shared this video community-announcement format, commenting that it was the singular presentation they would have a viewer attend to, if he or she viewed any of the published speeches at all. Rightfully so.
The entirety of Joshua Luke Smith's 9 minutes is just a hailstorm of soulful linguistics and full-bodied craftsmanship. It is a vibrant clarion call to be the "Seeds". To be a part of the growth of gardens, rather than building and imposing into oblivion. I also personally felt his offering was a highlight of the all recordings published, thus far. It is beyond pertinent to the story of Orthodoxy on this soil.
Please attend if you will. Blessings, for lending your eyes.
https://youtu.be/fsiB9uCMZ68?si=uQRiI0InsOKEArx8
Amen! Love is the way! Love is all, and all is contained within love.
Wherever there are human beings, we will find imperfection. So too in the Orthodox faith. I hear your struggles and frustrations and share them with you. I keep my faith by focusing on our rich theology. I keep my faith by embracing its Truth. The Church is a hospital, so we enter its doors with others who need healed in one way or another. Do not lose your faith. Do not let the devil take that from you. Thank you for your writings and insight. I look forward to reading more and following your unique journey as a faithful servant of Christ.